Wednesday, March 26, 2014

Surfer Brendan vs Atheist Lee - Part 3

This is a response to Atheist Lee and her latest blog post Presupposition Guy Comes Back and “Wins”
(Which is a response to a number of blog posts that have been going back and forth between us. See my first blog post about her here, and the follow-up here)




 I think if someone could invent a custom keyboard like the one below Atheist Lee would be able to benefit greatly from it, as it would save her a lot of time. As you'll see below her response is full of logical fallacies, ranting, condescension, put-downs, etc. Remove the emotionally biased language question begging epithets from her response and it would virtually cut her response in half. I guess that Atheists don't have much else, so they have to resort to those kind of underhanded tactics.




As usual I'll put Lee's comments in // and bold, with my responses in normal type below each comment.

//I created this post with new atheists in mind. Back when I first came to this position, I was a bit worried about talking to other people because I didn’t know if I could really articulate my reason for non-belief. I was worried they’d have super awesome arguments and I’d feel like an idiot.
It turns out those worries were unwarranted.//



Or it turns out that you no longer easily recognise the foolishness of your professed atheistic beliefs because you've been lying to yourself for so long.

//One thing I wanted to present to the new atheist is the presupposition argument.//

It's actually technically the 'transcendental argument' but has become known as the presuppositional argument. There is also no one specific presuppositional argument, but different forms of it. All of them presuppose the Bible as the ultimate authority and presuppose that everyone knows that God exists.

//This was recently presented to me by YouTube user Surfer Brendan. He runs a blog called “God or Absurdity”, which is actually a great way to look at his view: either a god (for which no evidence if provided) totally made everything, or magic nonsense absurdity magic’d everything magic nonsense.//

You forgot to mention that I've also got a website www.godorabsurdity.com. Evidence is provided for the existence of God on my website, but even the concept of evidence is evidence for God because it presupposes knowledge and truth, and you can't get those without God - as has been made obvious by your inability to account for knowledge other than positing a deity that you don't believe in. As for the magic thing - yes your worldview is nonsense and absurd, but my argument asks you to account for things like knowledge, truth and logic - something you've yet to do.

//You may recognize this as pure arrogance//

Knowing the truth is often confused as arrogance.

//mingled with abject ignorance to suggest something he believes and can’t even provide evidence for is somehow the only answer and any other answer —including one supported by scientific research— is “absurdity”.//

Ignorance presupposes knowledge, and ironical you've yet to account for how you can know anything according to your worldview. As for scientific research - science cannot show anything to be true. (See my blog post 'Why Science is Always False'.) You've also got a massive double standard because you say you can't believe in God because it's unsupported by science, but then you seem happy to believe in atheism despite their being no scientific evidence to support it. The belief that all things must be scientifically verified in order to be true is self-refuting, because that belief itself cannot be scientifically verified. You can't put a belief into a test-tube.


//The reason I bring to you the presupposition argument is to show the annoying way the pressupositionalist argues so you can save yourself the time. The first part of this blog is found here, which is a response to the horrible “argument” Brendan presented to me.// 

Yes, the truth has a way of being annoying to those who can't handle it. Calling it 'horrible' is another question begging epithet. But I can understand how it must feel horrible to be unable to refute the truth that God exists - because that means you're accountable to God and need to repent.

//It turns out he replied via another blog, and I opted to not read the reply at all. When you’re dealing with the presupposition argument, there’s simply no point in talking to these people because they literally base their entire belief system on an unsupported guess.//

You didn't even read my reply in my blog post response? And then you've got the audacity to say that you've refuted me and write a blog saying how what I said was nonsense and lies? You're confusing my worldview with yours. I've provided proof that God exists, and have a solid basis for my beliefs via revelation from God. Your atheistic belief system is based on the unprovable assumption that God doesn't exist. Atheism also includes the implied assertion that the universe, knowledge, logic, and truth can all be accounted for without God. I'm still waiting to hear any real accounting for any of these things. I asked a number of questions related to these in my previous post, and you've not answered them. Questions like: How do you get truth without God? How do you know you're not a brain in a vat? How do you know anything to be true in your worldview? If truth is what corresponds to reality, how do you know the true nature of reality to any degree within your system of beliefs? What is your basis for the future being like the past (which is what science relies on).

//If you want an exercise in annoying bullshit, check out Proof That God Exists, a website that Brendan actually used in support of his argument in his first blog. Yes, that terribly flawed website is something he considered proof to back up his beliefs.//

And yet you've not been able to refute it, and all you seem able to do is avoid questions, and make emotionally biased statements that you have no way of knowing are true.

//Anyway, Brendan was unaware that I don’t have time to read all my comments on my videos and posted this: 
"I’m still waiting for a response to a number of questions I asked you in relation to an earlier video. It makes me wonder if you are really serious about all of this or just have no answer to difficult questions and cannot properly defend your atheism. I guess all of your atheism is just built on assumptions that have no evidence." He followed this with a link to his new post, entitled Response to Atheist Lee’s Response.//

I'm still waiting to hear any real evidence supporting your atheism.
//Watch what happens when I tried to discuss this with him:
Me: “I’m not on YouTube all the time, and I receive a lot of comments and do not read them all. I only see this one because I’m going through comments on this video.
Now you’re asking me to spare more time and comment on your blog, and this is after I already read and utterly tore to shreds your first blog. Your first entry was laughably horrible. There are not enough words to express just how absolutely silly, ignorant, arrogant, self-serving and just lazy your post is.//

Back to pressing the "angry atheist keyboard" again I see. I could make a lot of money selling those to atheists. Who needs substance when you can just rant and make arbitrary assertions?

//I even had Christians telling me that what you wrote was an absolute joke.//

Please feel free to put those "Christians" in touch with me, as either they aren't saved, or they don't know their Bibles.

//You wasted my time. The only reason I bothered to reply at all was because I could turn it into a blog post and it had been a while since I made a blog post, and I could do so very quickly because your “arguments” were that easy to refute.//

Sounds pretty self-centered to me. I can't have wasted too much of your time as you said that you didn't bother to read my blog post response. And again more arbitrary assertions. A quick look back at the blog posts already written make it clear to the unbiased observer that you're making things up.

//I half-believed you were just trolling me because your post was seriously that bad. It was laughable. It was ridiculous…and you apparently wrote a follow-up? Yeah, noooo thanks.//

Back to pressing the "angry atheist keyboard". How do you know that something is 'bad' if you don't know what objective good is? You can't know that something is crooked unless you know for certain what 'straight' and true is. How do you  get truth without God?

//You don’t have an argument. Your entire viewpoint is based on running with an unfounded, unproven premise and pretending that’s the same thing as having evidence in your favor. It’s a joke.//

More arbitrary assertions and question begging epithets. I'm provided proof that God exists - without God you can't prove anything. But proof and persuasion are two different things.

//As for the ‘all of your atheism is just built on assumptions that have no evidence’, this shows incredibly clearly that you have absolutely no idea what my position is//

Your worldview is built on the assumption that the future will be like the past, and the assumption that you know things, but you've yet to account for either of those things.

//and you’re referring to me in a generic way in order to…I don’t know, get some attention? Attract more people to your blog by using my name? I don’t know, I don’t really care at this point.//

I'm motivated by the love of God, who calls all Christians to always be ready to share their faith and give answers as to why they know the Bible is true. If engaging with you gets more people to my blog then I'm happy because it's more people that can be exposed to the truth. As for the generic accusation - atheists generically assert that God probably doesn't exist, and to this I've responded.

//You fail to support your own position with anything other than make-believe, and then you fail to even understand the very, very basics of my position. It is not often that I run into an argument so profoundly stupid.//

Back to the angry atheist keyboard again. The sad thing for you is that you can't refute a "profoundly stupid" argument.

//You have wasted enough of my time. I’m sure you’ll pat yourself on the back and consider this a “win” for you because you’ve demonstrated you’re happy to literally make up whatever the f#&% [Surfer B's edit] in order to make yourself feel better. Have fun with that, I guess. Reality isn’t that bad, you should try it sometime. You don’t have to live in a world of make-believe.”//

Ironic given that you've not accounted for how you can know the true nature of reality to any degree.

//Brendan: "Ok, that’s your call. I’ll edit my post to note that you were unable to answer my questions, and could only resort to name calling as a response." Brendan (again): "I had a large number of questions which totally destroyed her worldview. I’ve copied and pasted her response and my response and added it to the original blog."
Me: “'I'll edit my post to note that you were unable to answer my questions'
I totally called it, you’re pretending this is some kind of “win”. Why do you have to resort to lying?//

A. I didn't lie. B. Why would lying being wrong in your worldview? To call lying or anything 'wrong' you need to have an absolute standard of morality, otherwise it's just your arbitrary opinion akin to saying 'I don't like chocolate flavored icecream'.

//Why not edit your post and write, “Lee Lemon addressed every single one of my baseless assumptions and unsupported bias in my first entry, so she refused to waste her time and even read this one.” That’s what happened. The way you’re wording it makes it seem like I read your blog post and golly gee it was just so full of facts and truth I couldn’t answer your questions.//

You've not addressed my questions but have just responded with a whole lot of emotional ranting. I guess that's all you've got and need to add in the emotional stuff because without it everyone would realise you don't have a basis for your argument.

//Now you know why I don’t want to waste my time with you: you’re a liar. You are literally making shit up just to make yourself feel better.
Protip: when you have to lie to support your points, you should reevaluate why you believe in those points.//

A. I've not lied or made things up. B. Why is lying absolutely wrong in your worldview? Why is anything wrong? You could say that it's wrong to lie because it hurts other people. So what? Maybe it's good to hurt others and necessary for the "evolutionary process"?
Protip: if you've got no real argument just put words like 'liar' in bold, and make up a whole lot of sentences with other emotionally biased words, and hope that no one notices that your actual argument is flawed.

//'I had a large number of questions which totally destroyed her worldview'
What “worldview”? //


It's absurd that many atheists deny that they have a worldview. A worldview is a set of beliefs through which we interpret or view everything. To deny you've got a worldview is to commit the fallacy of pretended neutrality. You have a professed atheistic worldview, although in reality the way you live your life and many of the things you assume are Christian beliefs - such as that lying is wrong, the reliability of your senses, the uniformity of nature etc. So in a sense it could be said that all atheists are schizophrenic between what they say they believe and what they actually believe in connection with how they live their lives. The things that you take for granted are the very things that presuppose God.

//Again, you don’t even have a very, very basic grasp of my position at all. Your comments are generic, uninspired and addressed at any ol’ atheist. I think the reason you’re coming to me is because you feel I’ll reply and you want some extra attention so you feel posting it on a semi-popular channel will get you more traffic.//

How do you know anything according to your worldview, let alone what my motives are? If I get more traffic to my websites, then great. If I don't then I don't mind. I just want you and others to know the truth, and feel sad when I see people like yourself saying things online that I know aren't true. If I were to say 'your mother is a whore' and made videos about it, I'm sure that you'd be angry and would defend the reputation of your mother. When you say that God isn't real, and all of the other nonsense you say against God, you're blaspheming God - the God I love - and so I'm not going to sit idly by and do nothing while you and others like you spew out blasphemous nonsense online.

//None of the points you made had any basis in reality, nor did they apply to me specifically. You’re just defaulting to such general (and terrible) arguments.
tl;dr - You’re a liar. You’re dishonest in your support of your worldview and twice now you have just flat-out lied about me in order to support your point.

Is this the kind of publicity you’d like? Here, I’ll even write on your blog! ^_^ Get you that extra boost.”//

You are confusing lies and truth, and again, in order to call someone a liar you have to know what truth is - and you've yet to account for how you can know anything to be true without God.

//If this seems like an exercise in futility, it is.//

It's futile to fight against God, and by attempting to refute Christianity, you are indeed fighting against God. Of course I'm not God and I'm not saying I'm perfect. But I do know some things for certain by revelation - such as that God exists, that we are sinners, that Jesus died as a perfect sacrifice for sin, and that in order to be saved one needs to repent and trust in Jesus.

//I fully knew that Brendan wouldn’t accept the systematic destruction of his original blog post or someone pointing out the very simple concept that his entire worldview is based on nothing more than a guess that he turned into an assertion and somehow adopted as fact. It is completely and entirely without merit.//


Again, ironic that you use words like 'fact' when you've yet to account for how you can know anything to be true in your worldview.

//Yet, when I point this out and explain that it is futile for me to respond to him and that his blog will be a further waste of my time, he ended up considering this a “win” for him. He apparently changed his blog in order to make it look like I read the blog, was overcome with truth and had no reply to his points, which is exactly the opposite of what happened for the first blog and nothing close to what happened for this second blog. It is a lie, making Brendan another person for whom Twitter specifically has the tag of #LyingForJesus.//

That's your spin on things, but you've got your fingers on the scales.

//That is the problem with the presuppositionalist. He doesn’t value facts.//

Is that a joke? You've yet to show me how you know even one "fact".

//His entire system of belief is without them. Why would he value facts when presented by you or me or anyone else? He won’t.//

How do you know even 1 thing to be true in your worldview? Tell me 1 fact about anything, let alone one fact that supports your atheism.

//Hopefully, you can recognize the signs of the presupposition argument. If you can’t as a new atheist, don’t worry: just ask the theist to provide actual evidence.//

Just don't forget that at a foundational level atheism doesn't need facts or evidence and you'll be fine.

//If they try to give you a logical argument, don’t let them fool you with special wording.//

Yeah, that logic thing - don't let logic fool you. Um. Atheist Lee, how do you know that you aren't fooling people with your "special wording"?

//That’s the flaw in a logical argument: something can be logically true but factually false if the premises are built on lies. Theists tend to adopt this in some way, but the presuppositionalist lives on this. The worldview is literally built on a lie.//

You've yet to explain how you know objective truth in your worldview, therefore have no grounds to call anything a lie. Lies presuppose truth, and truth presupposes God because you can't get truth without God.

//Unlike with other theists, the presupposition argument entirely and completely throws out facts, so no matter how many facts you bring, you’ll always lose because the presuppositionalist simply cares about his own ego and opinion, which he views as more valuable than silly things like facts and evidence.//

Facts and evidence are great. Presuppositionalists don't throw them out. There's lots of facts and evidence supporting God, but it's foolish for a Christian to look at specific facts and evidence with professed unbelievers who can't account for the general concepts of facts and evidence. So presuppositionalists go straight to the foundational issues of knowledge and truth, because it is precisely there that the professed unbeliever has no basis for their beliefs.

So I'm still waiting to hear how you know anything to be true in your worldview Atheist Lee. I hope that in any future responses you will actually take the time to read and answer my response and  refrain from the emotionally biased language you've resorted to here. Try to stick to the facts, rather than your arbitrary and emotionally biased opinions.

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