Wednesday, May 20, 2015

Islam - Religion of Hate - YouTube Show

S&B: Islam - Religion of hate w/ Brendan Larsen

Surah 4:89 "seize them and slay them wherever you find them." (And for those wondering if that verse has been taken out of context, it hasn't: Quran Chapter 4).

The other day I was the main guest for the Skeptics and Believers YouTube show. I thought it went pretty well, although it was challenging dealing with Michael's absurd objections.

His main objection was that I was taking verses from the Qur'an out of context. But that just isn't the case. Verses like Surah 4:89 are just one of hundreds of violent verses from the Qur'an that are on nearly every page (see my blog post on the Quran at the bottom of this post), and unlike the Bible there aren't any verses in the Qur'an that are telling Muslims to love their non-Muslim neighbours, and certainly they aren't commanded to love their enemies like Jesus commanded us to do.


(This link refutes the idea that Verses of violence are taken out of context. And this link refutes the idea that Muslims Only Kill in Self-Defense.)

Also, Islam is not just the Qur'an - it is the Qur'an and the Sunnah, which is the sayings and actions of Muhammad as recorded in the Hadith. The most authentic hadiths are Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, and these are even more violent than the Qur'an.

(The above chart is from Bill Warner's information on Political Islam. For more info on this topic see my review of the Sira and blog post on the Quran)

Bible Reading vs Quran

Another issue that came up was how many Christians have read all of the Bible vs how many Muslims have read all of the Qur'an. In relation to this I found this survey that says that amongst evangelical Christians in the USA 61% say they have read all of the Bible, and 1 in 5 Americans say they've read all of it). 

The reason that this is important is because apologists for Islam often argue (as Michael did) that if Islam was really so violent why aren't all Muslims violent. That's an absurd argument especially given the fact that most Muslims (perhaps 99%) haven't read all of the Qur'an. And even if they have read it doesn't mean they've understood it, especially if they've just mindlessly recited it in Arabic (which is often what happens). The emphasis in Islam is simply not on studying and understanding the Qur'an or Hadith, and so Muslims often just don't believe that the Qur'an is full of violence and evil but have been brainwashed into believing what other Muslims have told them about Islam being "peace". 

Even if half of Christians or more haven't read all of the Bible - they aren't the ones going around committing acts of terrorism. And when Christians do read the Bible and decide to take it literally and obey it - they become more loving people because the message of love is so clear in the Bible. Of course objectors point out groups like Westboro Baptist, but they are a tiny minority and clearly distorting true Christianity and most people would call them a cult. Westboro aren't even killing people anyway.

And even if orthodox Jews tried to take the Old Testament verses of violence out of context and try and kill Canaanites they aren't going to kill anyone because the Canaanites don't exist today.

Compare this to fundamentalist Islam and there is serious cause for concern especially given that worldwide statistics show that at least 10% of Muslims are fundamentalist. In some countries that figure is much higher. (See here for statistics).

Pedophilia in Islam vs Marriage in Jewish Culture

We don't know how old Mary was when she was betrothed to Joseph. For all we know she could have been 18. And as I tried to explain in the discussion it's absurd to compare Muhammad having sex with a 9 year old and Mary miraculously having a virgin birth at an older age. As Christians we don't follow Joseph or Mary anyway - we follow Jesus, but Muslims follow Muhammad, and Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6 and consummated the marriage when she was 9 and he was 53.


After doing a bit of research I found that the absolute minimum age for marriage under Judaism was 12 for girls and 13 for boys. (See Muhammad, Aisha, Islam, and Child Brides - Appendix 2 - Jewish Culture and Marriage)

There is no minimum age for marriage in Islam and the marriage of prepubescent girls is permitted. (See above article and also here and here).

Qur'an Order

The order of the Qur'an is from longest chapter to shortest. (See Chronological Order of Quran). This is important because it's the latter part of the Qur'an that is more violent and the latter part of the Qur'an "abrogates" (supersedes) the earlier more peaceful parts.


Fireworks at End of Discussion

I'm convinced that the reason that Michael and Joe lost it at the end is because they have no basis for truth in their worldview. That's why they object to presuppositional apologetics and get angry about it.

In the previous discussion with Michael he said that he didn't believe in absolutes. (See here). When I asked him if that was absolutely true he got angry and tried to block the discussion because it exposed the absurdity of his worldview which is not founded in Christ but on humanism. I'm not saying that Michael isn't a Christian (although I do seriously wonder) - I'm just saying that at the very least his beliefs have serious problems at a foundational level. It's telling that when I asked him if he accepted that the Bible is true he wouldn't even answer that.

As for Joe who is a professed atheist, I can definitely understand why he started swearing and getting angry when I challenged him with the issue of truth. You can't get truth without God, and presuppositional apologetics exposes that fact. So rather than honestly deal with difficult questions he got angry.

The accusation that I was preaching was a smokescreen. I just quoted a verse from the Bible and asserted that I know that the Bible is true and Islam is false. At that point there was no point in continuing because they were trying to control the conversation and dictate what could and couldn't be said. So rather than abandon my Christian foundation and continue the discussion as if we could just neutrally examine things I felt it was best for me to hang up.

After I'd Hung Up


After I'd left the discussion Michael, Joe and James continued the show for about another 10 minutes.  Michael quoted this verse from the Qur'an:

Surah 3:134 "Those who spend (benevolently) in ease as well as in straitness,
and those who restrain (their) anger and pardon men; and Allah loves the doers of good (to others)."


This doesn't show whether or not Islam is loving or hateful. In the wider context of the whole Qur'an it can only be logically interpreted as meaning doing good to other Muslims and pardoning Muslims. I say this because there are many many more verses in the Qur'an like this:

"Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers,
and merciful among themselves."
(Surah 48:29)
"O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites.
Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end."
(Surah 9:73)

Michael then quoted Matthew 5:44 where Jesus said, "But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you", and accused me of not being loving. This is absurd. It's because of a deep love for Muslims that I care enough to speak the truth about Islam in the hope that they'd come to know the truth that is found in Jesus Christ. Furthermore, the Bible commands us to hate. Romans 12:9 says, "Hate what is evil." And Proverbs 8:13 says, "To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech."
Hate for Islam is not hate for Muslims. I think that often people get confused at this and think that anyone who speaks negatively about Islam is automatically speaking negatively about all Muslims. But we need to differentiate between hating that which is evil, and loving those who need to hear the truth. If a person is heading for a cliff, who is more loving, the person who smiles and says to them 'have a nice day' or the person who warns them of the cliff? Clearly true love warns people if they are in danger.

The way Michael makes it sound we should be baking cakes for ISIS to show our love for our enemy. Loving your enemy doesn't mean helping them to kill you or wage war against you. That's not what Jesus meant, and if Michael professes to believe that I highly doubt that he lives that way. I'd go further than this and say that Michael is not showing love to Muslims who are in bondage to Islam by not challenging them on their false beliefs. He is not showing love to those who are forced into marriage as young children under Islam. He is not showing love to those who suffer FGM (Female Genital Mutilation). He is not showing love to the women in Islam who are being beaten by their husbands because the Qur'an condones it. He is not showing love to our Christian brothers and sisters in the Middle East and Africa who are being put to death by Muslims just because of their faith. He really is ignorant of what Islam is - and this was shown clearly when he said that Muslims believe that Jesus is the son of God. It's Islam 101 that Muslims don't accept that Jesus is the son of God. Again and again in the Qur'an it says that Allah does not have a son.

Michael then went on to say that the verses in the Qur'an that say that the Bible is true are only referring to the Old Testament and not the New. That's just not true. I go through the verses relating to this on my website www.godorabsurdity.com/islam.html. It's called the Islamic dilemma and it's a powerful argument. The verses in the Qur'an referring to Bible being true relate to the Old Testament AND the New Testament. The idea that the New Testament has been changed is not in the Qur'an but is a popular Muslim belief.

After that Michael made the statement that there were plenty of Christians prior to the council of Nicea that didn't believe that Jesus died on the cross. This is absolutely absurd nonsense. A person isn't a Christian if they don't believe that. It's a central tenet of Christianity.

Then Michael seemed to be saying that he isn't sure if Jesus is God or not. (@1:47:30).
He said, "I'm not going to sit there and try and make the philosophical argument as to whether Christ is literally God, or some kind of strange other being. I happen to believe in Christ's teachings and that's enough for me."

This is so ignorant and bordering on heresy I'm flabbergasted. The doctrine of the deity of Christ is central to Christianity and those that deny this are cult groups that aren't Christian such as JWs or Mormons. Jesus said, "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."
(John 8:24, 58,59)
The reason the Jews tried to stone him was for blasphemy. Because they realised that Jesus was claiming to be God. Jesus was echoing Exodus 3:14 where YHWH revealed himself to Moses as "I am".

It's as if every time Michael opens his mouth in these kinds of discussions nearly everything he says is wrong. Almost every sentence he spoke had some kind of wrong information in it. That's why at one point I said, "Where do I start?". It wasn't because I was confused - it was because in just a few minutes of talking Michael had said so many things that were incorrect. I could say so much more to address what was said, but I think I've got all of the main issues so I'll leave it there.

P.S. This about sums up the situation:


For Further Reading / Research:

14 comments:

  1. May Allah forgive you for you dont know what you are saying

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    1. You've got that back to front. "Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots." Luke 23:34
      Allah doesn't exist so you are the one that needs forgiveness for worshiping a false idol. Did you read all of my blog post and listen to the whole show? All I did was present what the Qur'an and Hadith say.

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    2. Hi Surfer, I'm not referring to your above talks. But this is my request to you to please stop making cartoons of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and remove these images from this website. I hurts me and other Muslims. Now don't tell me that your religion permits you for insulting others and making their Cartoons.

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    3. Hi Yusuf. I will remove the pictures as soon as Muslims stop following a false prophet who blasphemes the true God and the Son of God Jesus Christ, and as soon as Muslims around the world stop murdering Christians, oppressing women, marrying and sexually abusing children etc. I know that Muhammad is not a true prophet and so I will keep doing all that I can to speak out against Islam and Muhammad in order to bring awareness to this dangerous and false religion. I'm sure that you're a big enough person to get over your hurt from a picture, and if not then you need more help than I can offer. I pray that you'd seek the truth and read the Quran and Bible and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ who alone can save you.

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  2. Hi I'm writing this from Quran (4:89) you mentioned only a part of it
    From beginning of Quran 4:89 a couple of things is written :
    1 unbelievers try to make you like themselves so don't have a friend of them. Until they believe in god(it means untill they have a religion that believes in one God like jews or Christians)
    2 kill them if they didn't accept and still wanted to make you an unbeliever.
    !!3!! (Important) until you have a deal or peace treaty with them or if THEY DIDN'T WANT TO FIGHT AND BOTHER YOU.
    Then it's written you are not allowed (this is a must not a should) to fight with these two groups.
    4 if they wanted peace DON'T CONTINUE THE WAR WITH THEM (now it's a should)
    (Number 3 and 4 were 4:90)
    Also what you mean is actually 4:91 (kill them wherever you find them and their treasures and money's are yours) it's about the third group of unbelievers those who didn't want peace and will always try to bother you in a way. This is written in 4:91 totally I didn't add or remove anything special. You see its more like a self defense I mean what would jews or Christians do to guys who bother them (actually kill them)jews are killing Muslims in Palestine because they think that plastine people are a threat to them (while they are a threat to palastine)
    To make you sure of things I'll write quran 4:92 too
    Its about when you kill a person who believe in God (again it means all Muslims Christians etc. That believe god)this is one of the worst crimes in Islam and you have to make the family of the victim accept your apologize and pay them an amount of money if they didn't accept it then they have the right to kill you then.
    I can convince you about other parts too but my hand is really tired.
    To sum it up you see that Muslims are not allowed to kill people that believe in god unless it's defence againsttheir attack and are not allowed to kill unbelievers if they don't bother Muslims or want peace. If you have any problem with what I say tell me I'll convince you or you convince me and will show me the problems of islam and if so I will be realy thankful to you for the rest of my life :)

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    1. Hi Saeed. I'm sorry but your attempt to paint Islam in a positive light is about as convincing to me as someone trying to paint Hitler and the Nazis in a positive light. I know too much about Islam to ever be convinced otherwise. Have you read all of the Quran? All I've done is quoted the Quran and haven't taken anything out of context. There is nothing in the Quran that shows that the verses of violence are only defensive. And by arguing that way you are condemning Muhammad who often waged offensive jihad - even at times against tribes that had signed peace treaties with him. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/games-muslims-play.htm#selfdefense

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    2. See also http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/games-muslims-play.htm#context

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  3. Hi again I will be glad if you give me examples of what you said I mean broken treats by Mohammad or wars that he began them because I don't know such war in time of Mohammad or one of the Shia's imams. And to your first question yes I read Quran and what I wrote there is from Quran ( 4 : 88 to 4:92) so I'm not trying to portrait islam in a bright light for sure islam had some problems during its history ,as any other had some, I'm using quran to answer you and it means that these are basic fundementals of islam. I'm just trying to say that islam itself isn't as wild as mist people know or think about.

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    1. You said you've read the Quran, but have you read ALL of it or just some of it? I just want to make sure about this. And which language did you read all of it in? Your first language? (What is that?) Islam has more than a few minor problems - it's flawed at its very foundations and has massive insurmountable problems. Islam is much more violent than most people know or think in terms of what Islam ACTUALLY teaches based on the Quran and the Sunna. What you wrote is some verses from the Quran and then went on to say virtually the opposite of what the verses actually say.
      As for breaking treaties - there is some information about that here:
      http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/muhammad/myths-mu-hudaibiya.htm

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    2. I read it all in persian and some major parts (like what you mentioned) in Arabic because you know persian is really close to Arabic and I know Arabic a bit. Beside I'm not making anything from myself. what I told you is from one of the most respected Muslims commentators. the books name is tafsir Al mizan so this is not my opinions about quran this is what religious people and experts of Islam say. I'm really sorry but I cant open your links but if you can give me examples of what you say (offensive attacks in Mohammads time I can answer you just mention it's name and if you can the time)
      I guess you mean the wars that happened after Mohammad but that's another story
      As I said I can't open the links but as it seems it's about a treat name hodaybieh if this is what you call broken treaties ,tell me I know about it and can tell you about and just one more question I have if you wanna answer whats your religion are you a Christian?

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    3. Yes, I'm a Christian and have put my trust in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. Why can't you open the links? All you have to do is copy them and then right click and open in a new tab. Have you read the Bible? If so, how much of it? There is more information about why Islam is false on my website here www.godorabsurdity.com/islam.html

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    4. Also Tafsir Al-Mizan that you mentioned is not authoritative. The most authoritative texts in Islam are the Quran, early Hadith (such as Sahih Bukkhari and Sahih Muslim), and early Tafsir (such as Al Tabari and Ibn Kathir). Later hadiths and tafsirs are not authoritative and the one that you've mentioned is from last century and sounds very liberal to the point of not really being Islam. You can't just pick and choose who you like when it comes to interpretations - especially if they are contradicting all of the main authoritative texts. The Quran is supposedly the perfect word of Allah and a clear message from Allah, and yet you're trying to argue that what Allah said is the exact opposite of what the text said. So either you've got the interpretation wrong or Allah is the worst communicator ever. (Of course I'd argue that Allah doesn't exist and is a false god).

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  4. All I'm going to say, since you clearly didn't understand anything the Quran said, that may Allah/God guide you to the right path indeed. And you know what's really funny, Jesus (may peace be upon him) said to not mock any other prophets since it is a huge sin and make selfish, disgusting rumors about them, he even spoke good about Muhammed! He said that Muhammed (may peace be upon him) will be next prophet after him, and will be a great leader to the people. You are clearly a shame of Christianity, may God save you from hellfire. Peace.

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    1. Hi Ahmed. Thanks for your comment. Nothing I've said is my own opinion - I've quoted extensively from the Quran and hadith here and also in other blogs I've written on this. (See links at bottom of blog). If you have anything to say that actually counters what I've said from the actual verses from the Quran, reliable hadith, or the Bible then I'd be happy to discuss those verses.
      What Jesus actually said was ""Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves." (Matthew 7:15)
      and
      "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible." (Mark 13:22)
      Jesus never spoke about Muhammad despite what you have said. It's not me that needs to be saved from hellfire but you, as you are believing in a false prophet. How much of the Quran and hadith have you actually read? And how much of the Bible have you read?

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